THROUGH THE EYES OF EXPERTS
__________
Now let us take a look at the subjects like “Dog Fighting”, “Handicapped Opponents”, “Number One In Dog Fighting”, “Dog Fighting For Breeding Purposes”, “Dogs Versus Beasts” a “Defense (Of The Owner, His Or Her Family And Property)” through the eyes of experts.
To improve the content of the following chapters, I was helped by several experts that do not want to be named fully in view of the relevancy of this subject and I myself know them only by their nickname. They are masters “Torin”, “Pavel”, “Chvd”, “Trocha do mlyna” and “Oguz”.
Disclaimer: This writing arose from discussion forums about dogs and from personal experiences / opinions of several people and serves educational purposes only. It's goal is to inform the reader about our personal opinions on this subject, but on the first place about cruelness and uselessness of real dog fighting. We would like to evoke in him antipathy toward these bloody and inhuman practices. The photos placed in this chapter (most of them we received via email and of course, the people did not tell their real name) have an informational character only. We wished to let people know our meaning of this cruel and illegal "sport" but we also tried to find out which breeds of dog are stronger fighters than the other. But we do not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, safety or usefulness of any posted information. Anyway, if you would see this cruel dog fighting in your vicinity or know who fights his or her dogs, please report it to ASPCA, RSPCA or to your local Police Department.
Dog Fighting
I think that the best introduction to this subject are the words of “Trocha do mlyna”: „Personally, I prefer watchdogs to fighting ones, but they are fascinating me too. I am a man and it is typical of us - men. Each of us has always been excited (please do not worry that I am calling it like that) by a fight, the feeling who is better, which martial art is better, what dog is better or which car is faster etc. The reason is that we are hunters in our genes although already much degenerated (now I think of a modern culture not of bushmen etc.). The entire dog fighting theme is also joined with that, there is a desire in it to discover which dog or breed is the best one and which will be useful to us for hunting or for defense against the enemy."
For the first, we have discussed the position of respective breeds in dog fighting. First I have talked with Mr. Pavel about Dogue de Argentino, Rottweiler and Pit Bull Terriers. And experienced “Trocha do mlyna”, who claimed that he saw many dog fights in a foreign country (however, information from people participating on discussion forums are not guaranteed and they can often be a lie; for example,
Mr. "Torin" and Mr. "Trocha do mlyna" are probably one and the same person and Mr. "Trocha do mlyna" is probably a liar - comment) told to us: „Neither APBT nor RTW are such mavens as you describe them. I will disappoint Mr. Pavel, I have seen a Rottie tearing a Dogue de Argentino, also Pitbulls (he speaks about the gamebred and used to fight, not normal "Petbulls" who are much weaker in fighting - comment) tearing RTWs to pieces, but it was also vice versa few times, about 1:3-4. The Rottweiler has a crushing start, such a sudden explosion, but if that is survived by the Pit, then it goes down by the course of a short time and the position turns for the Pit's favor.“
Dogo versus Rottweiler:
We have researched the Rottweiler's fighting results and we have found out, that they lose in the majority of time when fight
with fighting breeds from good lines. But now and then, they also manage to win. Mr.
“Trocha do mlyna” remembers such a successful Rottweiler up to this day: „It was an exceptional RTW - 57kg, 70cm with a long tail. He defeated Dogue de Argentino, GSD and many half-breeds and he won over two Pits and out of these fights, one was repeated because of the Pit's owner who was not able to accept the beating of his dog (the fight again ended by the victory of the RTW). But he has also been defeated by a CO and by a Great Dane.”
"Saraybull kennel" gave us his witnecy about another exceptional Rottweiler of this kind: "I wouldn't like my comment to be misunderstood. In my country there was Rottie used for fights, called Rambo Bijeljinski. He was famous on all the Balkans. Was unbeaten, and was literally killing every game proven APBT in first 10 minutes. Was really a tough beast until someone poisoned him to death. I find him to be exception, but maybe there are some more exceptions like that. Interesting thing is that he was an excellent show dog before fighting career."
Here is how the Rottweiler managed to beat and almost kill a good American Staffordshire Terrier:
As far as my personal experiences, my RTW Bredy was either equal or better when fights with German Shepherds (generally, it dealt with dogs that run away from their masters and attacked Bredy when I was walking him), he bit the face of a Boxer through and run him away (the Boxer came to us when we was at the weir of a river and the fight came to pass directly in the water), he also fought Great Dane (they met in the same premise that we were watching) with muzzles and he was worse and knocked down by the Dane, but again and again attacked as long as the GD began to be nervous, and then his owner finally walked him away. Agar fought three GSDs and won two times, once time he was defeated (the first GSD leaved it's home and attacked Agar in the forest, the second run away in Plzen and attacked Agar in the street and the third one we met on a walk), two times Alaskan Malamute (in both cases, the same Malamute run away from his owner, firstly he wandered through the forest and secondly through the village), from these two fights the first was a draw (they held by their necks for a long time and then released) and secondly he lost (the Malamute attacked him in the dark night from backwards, held his neck and was better), two RTWs (he lived with them in the same house and they suddenly fought - he lost with the first one and he has a better draw with the second; however, the same Rottie that has beaten Agar lost to a smaller movable English Mastiff cross only weighing 60 kg). Further, he has beaten a Dogue de Bordeaux (they met on a walk), had a draw with an exceptionally strong Yellow Labrador Retriever (he was angry and his female owner even did not manage to keep him on a leash), and he also bit three small dogs - a Cocker Spaniel (he attacked Agar), a Springer Spaniel (he also attacked Agar) and a Sharpei (he snapped after Agar and he got angry and tore the Sharpei's skin on his back).
For a change, Torin has these experiences: „My Rottweiler (42 kg) has stifled out 35kg Bull Terrier, about 50kg GSD, stifled out 38kg Ridgeback and was beaten by a 79kg CAO. I found here (in our discussion - comment) new insights towards dog breeds but I realized that the RTW is the breed that I will always appreciate with no need to search in other unknown..."
Black Tosa Vs. red Tosa and the Rottweiler in a fitness fight:
As for the Pit Bull Terrier,
in view of it's combativeness we often here "gameness" the term (“game” = the willingness to fight up to the end and never give up). Thanks to it's combativeness, the Pit Bull can beat some larger and heavier dogs. But this game has also some negative consequences, for example if a Pit is set against a much stronger opponent, it fights to the end and does not give up and let itself be torn to pieces. “Trocha do mlyna” is adding: „Personally, I am a great protester against the so-much praised game. If two are at war with each other and one of them recognizes that he has no chance to win, he capitulates, in Nature it goes this way (dog usually spares the weaker one if it capitulates). He who makes a war to the end without a consideration is compared to psychically labile individuals. Consider it yourselves a step against the laws of Nature. Such individuals are among people also and the medical science calls them psychopaths.”
As the report of professional APBT fights, I have placed here some photos anonymously sent by a man with a “Vita” nickname. They show bloody “gamebred” Pitbulls' fights that are illegally going on in many places of this bloody planet:
Pitbulls fight many breeds, for example also Dogue de Argentino...
...or Rottweiler (the Rottie's mouth hold had to be interrupted to release the Pitbull who remained lying after the fight almost unable to stand, because the Rottweiler made a short work of him very harshly)...
...or Cane Corso (the CC made the Pit understand that he is a small little cur only)...
...or American Bulldog...
...or Tibetan Mastiff:
Humans pit these dogs against one another. The aggression against other dogs is evoked in them on purpose:
Whilst Pit Bull Terriers fight in America, “Shah” shows Gull Terrier fights in Pakistan
(an equivalent opponent of American Pit Bull Terrier):
“Trocha do mlyna” again: „The APBT's inception is caused by people's desire to see more (than a normal dog fight where the losing dog gives up itself, but on the contrary, the fight where the dog is fighting to the end even if tearing to pieces – comment), and this desire created doggy psychopaths in it's way.
The fame of Pitbulls is overcoming the borders and people would be able to set them even against elephants if that would not do (if would not be enough that they set them against stronger dogs - comment). We all know that the Pit Bull is the best, but we must let it in it's category of weight. If we consider it's weight and will set against it a CO in it's weight (try to imagine that) then the Pit Bull is the winner. But if we consider the reality, it is not. The life is like that. No one is interested in a lower-weight winner but in the heavy one. Take a winner of the lower-weight category and set it against an average fighter of the heavy one, and the result is clear. It is not enough for people the no-tiredness ability of fight but they even let them be steam-rolled by such machines like Ovcharkas etc. If I should agree with fights for the combative ability keeping in dogs of a Pit Bull type, then only within their kind. Fights between Ovcharkas and Pit Bulls are as unjustified as the life itself.“ To the Pit Bull, Mr. “Trocha do mlyna” still adds: „I have had a Pit two years and a splendid dog, but he would open the door for a thief and he would tell him where I have money if he would allowed to.”
Mr. “Pavel” explains to this: „In the beginning of the last century, the Pit Bull was an untiring fighting machine. The paws of some individuals used to be cut off during mouth hold similarly to the Bull Dog. Mothers were killing puppies, the dog was killing the bitch. Also their combativeness was above that of today's Pit. I do not believe that today's Pitbulls reach the fighting qualities of Colby's lines, for example.
ářčáářPit Bulls from game line are more combative. When a dog fight (I do not think of Pit Bulls only), the gameness is one of many factors. The Pit Bull's admirers used to perceive the game as only one criterion and they deduced that the Pit - as the only breed with a real game (which is not true) - is unbeatable and any other breed simply “does not have any chance” because the Pitbull is fighting to the last breath. In extreme cases that are not rare, though, the Pit's fans almost do not take other dogs for dogs. But as for example Tosa and APBT mixed fights proven it, the Pit is not unbeatable. From this reason the Pit beats Dogo only rarely in the streets, which (if it is not an unmovable show-dog) manages to injure it seriously or even kill it. Dogo is Dogo, good. But there are also dogs as large as the Dogo but more agile with a bigger stamina, muscles and jaw power. I have seen almost a hour-lasting fight of Kangals. Believe, I know that from a certain point of view, APBT is an invincible fighter. But compared to the other breeds from the realm of dogs used for fighting dogs and beasts, it is not unbeatable. Within that 50 minutes of fight, such a trained Kangal would manage to destroy the Pit Bull Terrier. It is the fact. I admire American Pit Bull Terrier, in some point it is beyond compare to other dogs. But it is not the reason why not to mention hundred-times proven facts and my valid opinion.“
In our doggy discussion, somebody unknown said to us: "The best fighting dog is Bully Kutta, Gull Dong and Gull Terrier. They have a bigger game than A.P.B.T., their lines are
older than those of the Pitbulls and the rules of fighting in Pakistani are harder than Cajun rules used in the Pitbull. The discovery of
these old fighting dogs means the end of the Pitbull breeding, because it is only the question of time when they will be
spreaded all over the world. The king is death, long live the king."
The photos of the fight between Akbash and gamebred American Pit Bull Terrier:
The Akbash was covering himself masterfully, shied his paws from the Pitbull to do not be held, he protracted his head forward and pressed the APBT down. He waited for the moment when the APBT stopped to snap and then shaked with it strongly and overpowered it in this way gradually. I want to add that it is nonsense to claim than the Pitbull does not feel pain when it fights. The Pitbull was heard something between a growling and a painful whimper. He suffered. Who got the idea to send such small dogs like the APBT against Ovcharkas? When it is held by a CO-type of dog, then it cannot stand it. When an Owtcharka holds a Pitbull, it cannot turn - it is missing a free skin. But when a Pitbull holds an Owtcharka, it can turn itself thanks to the free skin and a long coat. Even the strongest bite pressure has no use for APBT if it is only able to hold a piece of the Ovcharka's free skin. On the other way round, it theoretically manages to crush a paw of a larger opponent, but when the Akbash held the Pit's neck strongly, he already did not have the power because of the pressured neck muscles and the Akbash released his paw from the APBT's jaw and then was hiding it handily:
Finally, they had to release the Pit Bull from the Akbash's jaw:
The APBT simply does not reach the great Owtcharkas level! Mr. Torin is adding to that: „Personally, I think that Owtcharkas and/or Giant Shepherds can beat the Pit Bull due to a clear reason. First the advantage of weight, second also they are tested through hundreds of years and improved at fight (unlike the Pitbull, they were provided the training by Nature itself). Surely another one is Tosa Inu, also a big weight difference, and I would venture to say that also a Fila Brasileiro that looks awkwardly, despite this it is able to be unbelievable quick (also proven at fights with Jaguars etc.) and surely many Molosses can line up the Pitbull.“ So if somebody thinks that the Pitbull is the strongest dog on the world or the only one true fighting dog, he should change his opinion, because Pitbulls are losing the majority of fights against Bully Kutta, Kangal etc. And one more fact that I was told by an expert: in the Pitbull fighting line, only two out of seven puppies will be good at fighting and there is only a very small number of the true fighting lines. So if taken generally, the majority of today's Pitbulls does not manage to fight very good.
The Akbash fought a Rottweiler too. It is necessary to add that the Pit Bull was more combative than the Rottweiler (he was biting everywhere where he was allowed to bite - but it was no use for him anyway), but from the beginning of the fight, he was bitten more than the Rottweiler. When the Akbash bit the Rottweiler, he took in his mouth only a skin and a piece of the neck's muscles, whereas in the Pit Bull fight, he took in his mouth almost the entire neck or head. There were seen larger consequences on the bitten APBT than on the bitten Rottie. The Rottweiler is larger and heavier, but not as combative as the Pitbull who is smaller and weaker in it's way, but more combative with better reactions. They are different breeds with different merits and weaknesses. And similarly to the Pit Bull, also the Rottweiler lost the fight with the Akbash:
It is necessary to add, that Ovcharkas use to win about 90% of fights versus Rottweilers, for example this Kangal who won within a few moments: The following example shows us how a weaker dog can exceptionally defend against a stronger one. This Rottie managed to resist a Kangal who dominated the fight most of the time but the Rottie managed to painfully bite him in the end and then the dogs were separated: We have seen many videos, photos and dog fights. And we wanted to make the conclusion of this as far as the power or combativeness of respective breeds. Finally, we agreed that the American Pit Bull Terrier is not the best one, but Owtcharkas (Giant Shepherds) and several other Molossian breeds are the best. In contrast to a game APBT, Giant Shepherd Dogs / Ovtcharkas have a preserved social feeling and sometimes it happens that they “lose” to a Pitbull because they simply do not want to fight it; some Shepherd Dogs or large dogs in general often do not consider a small dog a thread or a real opponent and therefore they are not interested in fighting with it (they only defend when the Pitbull attacks). Here is an example of Caucasian Owtcharka that did not want to fight a Pit and turned away from him (Mr. "Trocha do mlyna": "The Pit Bull, when in a premise watched by a CO when the Caucasian would consider the Pit a danger to the premise that it watches, would not have a chance to survive 10 minutes; simply the CO in the ring was not in the need of fighting that small cur." However, when Owtcharkas go angry and really want to fight, then they usually bring the Pit down quickly: Also Mr. “Pavel” has no doubt about the Owtcharkas / Giant Shepherds primacy
at dog fighting: „It is the fact that even a death-game Pit Bull that was in the ring many times must not have a chance against a well-trained Owtcharka.“ Further he adds: „To send a Pit against an Owtcharka, it is an extremely inhuman and contemptible act. On the other hand, each of us knows that if we believe something and know something and somebody puts our opinion down, we can prove him ours in a very unstandard way (in given case, through the beating of Pitbulls by stronger dogs so that the Pitbulls fans will understand that their APBTs are not the best ones – comment) - also this is the reason for these fights. The Pitbull breeders really believe that they have an insuperable treasure at home. They are right in some respects, in others they are not. People often ask why there are always searched dogs able to beat the Pitbull. The answer is prosaic: bets in illegal mixed dog fights. All through the world, a lot of money is betted on fighting dogs. If one of them is the American Pit Bull Terrier, most of the bets goes on it and that is why it is possible to win much money on the victory of the other dog over the Pit.“ Mixed fights between different breeds of dog are a very welcomed event for many dog fighting fans. Here we can see Neapolitan Mastiff Versus American Pit Bull Terrier, Great Dane Versus German Shepherd, Neapolitan Mastiff Versus Dogue de Argentino and Neapolitan Mastiff Versus German Shepherd: Also Bandogge was said to rightfully be a very strong dog. In fighting Bandogges, it was taken care of the cross in such a way that the Pit was from a fighting line and the Moloss was as strong as possible. Nevertheless, the original and true Swinford Bandogge always was a Pit x Bullmastiff cross. So the Bandogge obtained a bigger height and weight, but it's game and movability decreased a bit. But this does not change the fact that the Bandogge can be an excellent fighter. I am preferring my “wolf type”
(breeds staying closer to the wolf are more efficient than other breds of the same weight - comment). Mr. “Pavel” thinks: „As far as dogs and the wolf as their ancestor, single doggy breeds manage to conquer the wolf in every single aspect (greyhounds are more rapid than the wolf, Molossers are stronger, Bloodhounds have a better sense of tracking etc.). On the other hand, hardly any breed of dog is as universally composed, universally working as the wolf.“ I have the experience that wolfdogs fight best in an open area, see two examples. Long ago, Bredy fought a German Shepherd for several times (it used to happen on the premise that we controlled, the owner of which had a German Shepherd in a cage with a corrupted fence and therefore the GSD often run away). When they fought beside or in the gatehouse, Bredy always won and pulled the Shepherd down. But when they fought in an open area outside, the German Shepherd was more rapid, quickly bit Bredy and then dodged away. They fought several times and the result had always been the same: when in a small space, it always was the victory of Bredy, and when in an open area, it always was the superiority of the German Shepherd. With no exception. From this it results, that when in a free space, universally built dogs (my wolf type) are better, but when in a small space or in the pit, those are better who can strongly hold the other dog and overpower it by the strength of their mouth hold. Mr. Torin tells about this: „I have a RTW as well and when he fought a GSD several times, he was not so good in an open area, but when they met in a narrow corridor, the result was reversed. It is like you write it, the wolfdogs in a free space are amazing (it will only do to take a look at the wolves fight in the pack, it is all dodge away, attack, dodge away etc.)“ There are three examples here of the comparison of the fighting ability of large short-coated Molossers of a Mastiff type and long-coated Molossers of a wolf type. It is Bull Mastiff Vs. Caucasian Ovcharka, then Central Asian Ovcharka Vs. Great Dane and in the end Central Asian Ovcharka Vs. Rottweiler. All the three fights was about a draw: “Trocha do mlyna” is closing this chapter by proper words: „These dogs (fighting breeds – comment) are made for fight between one another, not for our defense, that is why only circusy fighters for me (despite this beautiful and I accept them), but I am personally concerned in dogs like a Fila Brasileiro - faithful, it does not let itself be touched by a stranger (in this respect I like Mr. Kastl that he wants to prefer that in RTW also). You, people who have fighting dogs, they are splendid but do not make half-gods from them. They are nothing for our defense, I know it, so their function is elsewhere. I want to have a watcher in my house, not a fighter.” The television and medias as such are full of violence. One human hurting the other human is possible to see there every day and some people do mind that too much. It is however worse about the fight of two dogs who, moreover, want to fight themselves. For those who want to see the reality, are adult, are not bothered about the look at the fight of two dogs and are allowed by the laws of their country to download dog fighting videos, there is prepared a collection of dog fighting videos. If you want to gain an access to it and if it agrees what is written on the following link, confirm by clicking on it, in the opposite case (if you are not adult and if the fight of two dogs bothers you) please ignore the link and do not click on it. And one more thing is here, which is a forum for all the lovers of big wolfdogs called Russian Volkodav. But warning is that all the Pitbull fans and similarly will be mercilessly deleted and banned from the forum. One way or other, real dog fighting is dangerous and it is more harmful than useful to dogs accordingly to the opinion of most of the people participating in our discussion and has to be stopped!!!
